Resolve Color Management & Raw Footage

In a color managed project if you clip out the highlights in the raw tab and you bring them back in a node? I don’t think you can in a non color managed project. If you can bring them back are the raw settings useless because the primaries have full control of all the raw data?

If you put a BM4k film raw file into logc managed color space does resolve remove and sensor specific color biases form the BM camera to match an alexa’s sensor color biases? For example would the BM footage get that same alexa green tint?

Huge thanks for breaking don the RAW workflow, as Ive been doing RED nonstop. Im very disappointed they didnt include a transform for RedLogFilm, as the newer RED cameras can record ProRes and I occasionally get a flattened ProRes444 RedLogFilm to grade. I requested it, but I now see why it wasnt added. As you mention, Ive been using Cineon Log as a close alternative. Still, fingers crossed

RCM seems fantastic for some aspects, but difficult for others. An example is VFX, which usually require provided DPX openEXR sources and delivery even if shot RAW. Ideally, I could somehow use RCM on some shots & use a completely unmanaged approach (as opposed to converting the entire timeline working space & output) for others, but that brings in a matching issue between the SDK debayer and RCMs. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks for sharing and any ideas greatly appreciated!

Wow, thank you so much for taking such care in sorting out how Resolve Color Management is dealing with both ProRes Log files versus Raw files and how the various options affect each one! It’s very, very helpful. After seeing how it works though, I’m truly scratching my head trying to figure out why in the hell anyone would ever use RCM for REC709 deliverables , especially on projects that include many different camera and color space sources. Oddly, this seems to be the use case RCM appears to be designed for in the first place. Also, I’m having trouble understanding why even with ProRes log files from Blackmagic’s own cameras (which I work with frequently) working in RCM REC709 timeline and output yields the worst kind of crushed, oversaturated video in the timeline. I’m trying to understand why that look is being promoted as “a good starting point for grading” rather than simply working with a professional set of LUTs or a tool like Film Convert, which with a couple clicks, gets me a starting point for grading in REC709 that looks infinitely better than what RCM starts me with. I know LUTs can clip, but I think most of us know by now how to grade before and after the LUT to easily avoid the issue. Also, when faced with timelines containing shots from different cameras, when I use Film Convert and self manage my color using a calibrated REC709 monitor they all start out looking good and matching one another. With RCM set to REC709 timeline and output, the same shots all begin with looking like awful video and they don’t even match. Have I missed something here? Are you really using RCM as a starting point for grading timelines containing a mix of camera sources when working on REC709 deliverables?

James – I need a little more info. If you’re using RCM but Input, Timeline, Output are all 709 then there should be no difference between your ProRes Log clips in a managed/unmanaged project.

Are you assigning the clips an input color space? If so what option?

Also what version of r12?

Yes I’ve used RCM on a few projects in the past few weeks – mainly alexa (which I work with mainly). Yes, sometimes depending on original shot exposure you can see some weirdness just like with a LUT but do the computational transforms all the data is there to do what you need to do with it with the rest of the Resolve toolset

So in my expample Log C on Input, 709 on timeline/output. It’s been fine. Other sources if I know what they are I assign input as needed.

Again LUT workflow, plugins etc are perfectly acceptable ways of working

I don’t think it would be that hard for the team to reverse engineer some of the RED options – even though they probably couldn’t call them the same thing.

I’ll admit since I’m mainly a longform TV guy I deal with VFX workflow issues infrequently but with that said linear to log or vice versa is totally possible with RCM. But it does seem that that work for a variety of reasons is being handled in an ACES workflow these days.

Greg great questions!

Let me do some testing over the weekend and report back.

Heres to hoping about RedLogFilm:).

I’m still somewhat new to bringing in VFX from vendors, but I’m surprised how few lowmid-range VFX vendors have adapted ACES, let alone other levels of proper color management. Gonna play with lin to log w RCM and see how that works out instead of LUTs. Thanks, Robbie!

Raw settings aren’t useless. They’re still a convenient and precise way to adjust color temp and exposure. The optional processing are still available.

As to whether a bm camera would match the Alexa. In as much as it can, yes. The transform (if its computationally correct… And these things do sometimes have bugs) should transform the bmd film type log to an Alexa LogC type log. But that doesn’t mean the camera itself wil be able to capture as much information as the Alexa. As to the green cast.. If you mean the Alexa “look”, that’s part of the photo matrix transform, and that RCM doesn’t do.

I think if anything RCM would be a huge advantage in those sorts of applications.

There’s one other wrench in the works with R3D’s the redcolor settings fold in aesthetic color matrix transforms… IOW a look. Once that look is baked in, you can’t really reverse it out, and get a technically true version of the image. In any case if you’re getting a lot of baked in red, RCM isn’t going to give you a whole lot of help.

Jason, one potential for a solution (more like a workaround) for baked-in ProRes RedLogFilm is to have them shoot a chart, preferably like one of the DSC CamAlign or Chroma DuMondes, and then you can reverse-engineer a curve and an initial Primary grade to normalize the signal. As I’ve often told people who deal only with digital, not enough DPs shot charts in the film days, so the log signal you see today is pretty much what we saw with film negative. Coming up with a reasonable starting point is something you can create as a PowerGrade. (Or as a pseudo-LUT, for that matter.)

It’s interesting to me that the manual only spends about 4 pages covering Resolve Color Management, plus another 4 pages on ACES. I’d like to hear the pros and cons of each and how they work in the real world and where this will save time and money. So far, my impression is that a lot of the advantages are theoretical more than practical, and I’m suspicious of what the camera manufacturers believe will work for their specific color science vs. what happens with real footage. For example, I’ve seen two identical Red cameras from the same scene come up quite a bit differently, even when using identical corrections, because the cameras themselves are not the same.

Hi Robbie,
Just realized that you replied to my post! Thanks so much! I was working the same as you, but starting from BMCC log clips so it was BMCC log set on Input, 709 on timeline/output. My issue is that working this way the clips look absolutely terrible as starting point for grading. I’ve never liked Blackmagic’s log to REC709 LUT and although I realize that RCM is not using LUTs, the way it transforms the color, contrast and saturation looks pretty similar. I gotta say, it makes the BMCC log clips look freaking awful – like they were shot on a Sony handicam in factory default torch mode. I understand RCM is non-destructive and I can pull the clipped, oversaturated parts of the image all back down to look better, but I don’t see how that saves me any time or headache versus going without RCM. Why would Blackmagic program in such an awful looking transform as a starting point?

In any case, your advice to use RCM with Input, Timeline, Output as all 709 so there should be no difference between the ProRes Log clips in a managed/unmanaged project is what I’ll do. Seems then I’ll get to keep my old workflow in the timeline, but still get the advantage of RCM for changing output color space when needed.

Many many thanks for all the help!

I’m a bit confounded. If I’m working on multi-camera project with some raw and some non-raw footage, how do I set up the input, working color space and timeline color space? For example, I have an edit ready for grading that has r3d files and mxf files from an FS7, for web delivery. My inclination is to have output and timeline color spaces set to sRGB and s-log3 cine for my input, but am I going down the wrong road? What if you had a project with ari raw and red raw, how would you approach that given what you demonstrated in the video?

So as of resolve 12.5.3 this behavior occurs

As noted by Alex West here:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=54335&p=313332#p313332

When choosing Resolve Color Management, the camera raw is bypassed by the input settings of the color management tab, except if you choose “bypass” for the input. In that case, the camera raw settings seems to be taken as an input value. … The fact that the camera settings are bypassed should maybe implied that this tab is greyed in the project settings and in the color page.

I’ve just started using P3 colourspace for a feature and I’m slightly confused by the colour management. Namely the white point and gamma values to use for a reasonable simulation of what it will look like in the theatre while I’m grading with my EIZO monitor that’s calibrated to P3 DCI.

Can I still use a D65 white point or is the greenish DCI white point the right one? And is 2.6 gamma correct? I’m hoping when I make a DCP with these settings it will look close to what I see on my monitor but it’s my first time using this colourspace. I’m also using an ACES workflow for colour management if that’s useful to know. Thanks in advance